Aircraft Refuelling Options in Sanctuary Shattered Sun

You make a really important point here, @Sprouto, in that everyone compares - immediately - sanctuary to supcom. And it’s NOT supcom. So we must have an open mind about what the devs for Sanctuary dream up for us. To look at supcom as a restriction is harmful.
 
It matters quite a bit - and you should remind yourself that the community in which you play SCFA is not all there is. There are many others, that do play on 40k maps on a very regular basis - some even 80k - and fuel time matters quite a bit. It was never intended that the game would limit itself to shoebox sized maps. If that's what you prefer, then you should say so - and be clear that you don't want any level of realism for any part of the game. There are many that can accept that - and I don't speak for the developers in that regard - the final say will be theirs.
1)The amount of people who play maps bigger then 20x20 is much smaller then players who play normal sized maps
2)Game was never intended to 40x40 or 80x80 km maps, otherwise T1 level of units would have been done in a way it actually matters on these maps. T1 Land is almost straight useless here, since by the time they come from one side of the map to another you can easily upgrade economy and get an army/PDs. Big maps are overstretched in terms of time you need to play on them, so they will always be less popular then smaller maps where you can get more action and faster. Besides, even though it is a thing that can change and doesn't have clear limits, but devs said that they are going to focus a lot on competitive part of the game, so chances of game being balanced around ridiculously large maps is even smaller.
 
You make a really important point here, @Sprouto, in that everyone compares - immediately - sanctuary to supcom. And it’s NOT supcom. So we must have an open mind about what the devs for Sanctuary dream up for us. To look at supcom as a restriction is harmful.
Yes, it isn't a supcom, but is heavily inspired by it, and we also see a ton of new features and abilities to keep eye on. Devs said before, that they are gonna focus on competitive part of the game, and limiting air possibility with fuel mechanic would make game much slower and less fun. If you need fuel refueling buildings or slow naval/land units(won't even count air refueling units, because it just makes the whole mechanic useless, just a mandatory unit you always have to build to be able to do anything), you have pretty much no chances to get a succeful air raid on high skill levels, which is bad. Hell, you won't even be able to do early agression on mostly naval maps with bombers or interceptors. You can't try and bomb enemy because your range is heavily limited, you can't try and intercept an enemy transport that is gonna drop engineers on an island because again, you are limited by fuel and can't get on another side of the map to do that. Can't do a drop onto enemy's base that could give you a chance of a come back, because again, very limited by fuel mechanic. Air units already trade bad against any AA in normal quantities, limiting their movement to slow units that can be easily killed would make them useless. Besides, all the maps from developers we have seen are around the size of 20x20 in supcom, so the focus of the game is more likely to be on this size maps. If devs were to balance the fuel mechanic around this size of maps, the air units would suck even more on any bigger map.

If air units are bad against AA and they are significantly limited in their movement, why would you ever want to build them?

It would be much better of devs spend time on more interesting and unique features that the fuel mechanic that is only annoying to deal with.
 
1)The amount of people who play maps bigger then 20x20 is much smaller then players who play normal sized maps
2)Game was never intended to 40x40 or 80x80 km maps...

I don't want to be rude in someone else's backyard - but you don't have any real numbers to support that - no matter how important you may feel FAF is to SCFA.

The game came, out of the box, with 40k and 80k maps. Laying any claim to the intentions of the developer in what their intentions were is rather presumptuous of you in light of that fact.
 
I prefer larger maps and longer games. That said, I don't play competitive anything. Skirmish-wise vs the AI I will always opt towards larger map sizes.
 
Or more tactical and strategic?
I don't count moving your air units from left to right and enemy doing the same with AA as strategic. There is no strategy in using your air units if they are so limited in movement enemy has eternity to prepare for it. By the time you are able to set those fuel units in position to strike enemy would have more then enough time to prepare AA and counter any raid of yours.
 
I don't want to be rude in someone else's backyard - but you don't have any real numbers to support that - no matter how important you may feel FAF is to SCFA.

The game came, out of the box, with 40k and 80k maps. Laying any claim to the intentions of the developer in what their intentions were is rather presumptuous of you in light of that fact.
Ok, do you have any numbers on how many players play 40x40 or bigger maps? I doubt you do, but you also set your maps and LOUD style of gameplay as something better then others. What is an average online of LOUD? Lets compare it to FAF. Whenever I Launched LOUD I have seen max 3 lobbies during online peak. FAF has like 14 lobbies many of which are 4v4-6v6 and many of them are half/almost full and many more players in matchmaking, so from my side I see that there are multiple times more people playing 20x20 maps then people playing 40x40 or bigger.

But whatever you think of that fuel mechanic. Devs said no it before anyway and I doubt they would ever add this, so I don't see any reason to continue and argument here. I have said all of my points here anyway multiple times, if it didn't work, it wouldn't change anyway
 
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No one was more surprised than I was to find out that the single player versus AI community is vastly larger than the competitive community - you cannot drive your assumptions based upon multiplayer lobbies - LOUD has never angled for the competitive community, that's always been the pervue of FAF, and will continue to be so into the future I'm quite sure. Based upon the numbers we see in Steam, it's clear that far more people play SCFA than either FAF, or LOUD can account for - and - it's not a competition, despite the sensitivities of specific segments of either community - that's not the discussion here. The longevity of SCFA is predicated upon the fact that it does cater to ALL of those audiences, and as we continue to see in the wider industry, focusing your efforts upon a narrow segment of the entire community is not often successful - and that's the entire point of having these discussions.
 
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There is room within the SCFA community for a multitude of third party offerings. That may be the beauty of the game and certainly is the reason it remains relevant today.

But, anyway, how's about them aircraft refuelling options? :D
 
Sorry - my apologies for getting off topic - and - I apologize in advance for relating your ideas against my own experiences.

The airpad, in SCFA, was widely ignored in small map play, and understandably so - but when it became possible to enjoy large map experiences, it took on a whole new importance. We considered some of these options ourselves, but not the in-air option. The 'docking' requirement seemed to preclude that, so, in the end, we just kept to the original refueling choices and that has worked out reasonably well over the years.

One aspect we did eventually employ was a 'refuel/repair aura', around airpads, that gives a very low level ongoing refuel and repair effect within a very constrained radius. This permitted keeping large number of air units airborne, on station, rather than on the ground, almost like modern day CAP. This was a marked step forward in the refuel mechanic - and while we haven't, as of yet, found the need to put it on a mobile platform (mostly for performance reasons), there's no reason why it could not be done. This would, in effect, represent the mobile options you have suggested.

The Strategic Capture points methodology makes me think more of Ashes of the Singularity, not that they employ this, but the map/puzzle piece sentiment is unappealing to me, in as much as it forces itself on the map topography, which has always detracted from the concept, for me.

Refueling drones makes me think of a much older mechanic that was used in the pre-SCFA game, M.A.X. - which had refuel units that could go out onto the battlefield and move fuel units into both air and ground units. In that game, which I have long considered the father of modern RTS, fuel and ammo were considerations for ALL units - practical in a turn-based environment (and absolutely fascinating from a tactical stance) but simply too fiddly for RTS. It was from this experience that I always felt that the Supcom mechanic was an excellent compromise - and why I vigorously defend it's inclusion into modern RTS.
 
No one was more surprised than I was to find out that the single player versus AI community is vastly larger than the competitive community - you cannot drive your assumptions based upon multiplayer lobbies - LOUD has never angled for the competitive community, that's always been the pervue of FAF, and will continue to be so into the future I'm quite sure. Based upon the numbers we see in Steam, it's clear that far more people play SCFA than either FAF, or LOUD can account for - and - it's not a competition, despite the sensitivities of specific segments of either community - that's not the discussion here. The longevity of SCFA is predicated upon the fact that it does cater to ALL of those audiences, and as we continue to see in the wider industry, focusing your efforts upon a narrow segment of the entire community is not often successful - and that's the entire point of having these discussions.
So, if so many players are playing against AI and are not competitive, and just want to have fun and explode stuff, how would a fuel mechanic that only limits their options be any good for them? It would be in their interest to be limited by "balance change" that is focused more on multiplayers, because if AI can "abuse" this "balance change" those players can just lover the strength of AI until they are comfortable.

But what a more important point with this what I want to say, is that those single player gamers are less likely to care about some balance issues, because I doubt AI would know how to use OP combination of units or such, and even if it is a problem for them, game is planned to be very easy to mod and so, they would be able to play with whatever balance they want. Them using any mods would not have influence on somebody else, this is why I think the competitive part of the community should have the priority balance, since competitive people are gonna play matchmaking and it obviously doesn't have mods to change something they don't like. IF the single player community doesn't like something, they can easily get a mod that changes that if it is implemented easy enough to do, like in FAF

It was from this experience that I always felt that the Supcom mechanic was an excellent compromise - and why I vigorously defend it's inclusion into modern RTS.
If so and it is only meant to matter for 40x40 and bigger maps then do whatever, I don't play such big maps anyway and it won't ever affect me.
 
So, if so many players are playing against AI and are not competitive, and just want to have fun and explode stuff, how would a fuel mechanic that only limits their options be any good for them? It would be in their interest to be limited by "balance change" that is focused more on multiplayers, because if AI can "abuse" this "balance change" those players can just lover the strength of AI until they are comfortable.

But what a more important point with this what I want to say, is that those single player gamers are less likely to care about some balance issues, because I doubt AI would know how to use OP combination of units or such, and even if it is a problem for them, game is planned to be very easy to mod and so, they would be able to play with whatever balance they want. Them using any mods would not have influence on somebody else, this is why I think the competitive part of the community should have the priority balance, since competitive people are gonna play matchmaking and it obviously doesn't have mods to change something they don't like. IF the single player community doesn't like something, they can easily get a mod that changes that if it is implemented easy enough to do, like in FAF
Well, your point is well taken, there are many who prefer simplified simulations, without any level of realism or details or variety - and there are many who want as much detail and complexity as they can get (Hearts of Iron), which is very successful. Who are we to decide if one is better than the other ? All I can say is that LOUD users, who are predominantly single players, care very passionately about realism - in fact, to a much more pointed degree, than I had ever anticipated.

As for it being a 'balance' issue - that's an entirely different discussion, one that you and I have had, in some degree, elsewhere. Let's not drag that out here.
 
All I can say is that LOUD users, who are predominantly single players, care very passionately about realism - in fact, to a much more pointed degree, than I had ever anticipated.
If they care about realism they would know that air units in 28th century when fusion reactor technology exists could not be limited to short period of time in flight. Modern commercial passenger planes can fly for 18000 km without refueling across Atlantic and more. No way a unit with fission reactor that has fuel of incredible power density ever be limited to even half of that.
 
Of course, the 28th century isn't here yet - and neither are fusion reactors, or portable fission reactors large enough to power even a small vehicle. Don't for a minute assume that these air units are comparable in size, or firepower, to modern air units. Since, if you do, then you also need to assume that they'll take weeks to build - not minutes - and cost dramatically more. As in Supcom, the direct line should be drawn with drones - which do have severe range limits.
 
Of course, the 28th century isn't here yet - and neither are fusion reactors, or portable fission reactors large enough to power even a small vehicle. Don't for a minute assume that these air units are comparable in size, or firepower, to modern air units. Since, if you do, then you also need to assume that they'll take weeks to build - not minutes - and cost dramatically more. As in Supcom, the direct line should be drawn with drones - which do have severe range limits.
1)We see fusion reactors as a building in Sanctuary, they are already much smaller then the prototypes we have, there is no reason at lest Chosen would not be able to make them small enough to fit in a plane. There is no way units can use such power hungry abilities like shield, plasma weapons/ railguns and so on without an efficient power source right in them. Lire in real life, railguns are limited to being stationary or put on a ship exactly because of how much power they need, and since we don't have any technology for efficent power generation, those are the only options we have right now to put them on. But as you can see with EDA, it is not the case, they have a relatively small t3 unit that can shoot a railgun with high rate of fire while not having much volume inside it for any sort of batteries to house that would be enough for a long battle.

2)Cost matters nothing in Sanctuary in terms of our world. If you have a technology to print a tank in seconds, it means that you may as well print the more complex parts at spot. Sure, it would take a bit more time, but worth enough for the efficiency of.
2.1) Size of many units is not really bigger then in reality. Like the EDA commander is only 11 meters tall an 38 meters long, and there was somewhere another picture of T1 Tank being only a little bigger then M1 Abrams. With technology give it would not take much time to create them with or without fusion reactor.
2.2) Also, how do you even imagine humanity being able to build a giant dyson spere in some 6 centuries without an ability to print out a ton of details and buildings as fast or a bit slower as we see in game? Without it it would have taken thousands of years
 
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1)We see fusion reactors as a building in Sanctuary, they are already much smaller then the prototypes we have, there is no reason at lest Chosen would not be able to make them small enough to fit in a plane. There is no way units can use such power hungry abilities like shield, plasma weapons/ railguns and so on without an efficient power source right in them. Lire in real life, railguns are limited to being stationary or put on a ship exactly because of how much power they need, and since we don't have any technology for efficent power generation, those are the only options we have right now to put them on. But as you can see with EDA, it is not the case, they have a relatively small t3 unit that can shoot a railgun with high rate of fire while not having much volume inside it for any sort of batteries to house that would be enough for a long battle.
Besides for the lore on this part, the lore lords are pushing an idea that those fusion reactors don't produce energy for everything else, but they use energy of the Sanctuary to produce plasma that would work as an efficient energy storage material that could be used to fuel units and everything else that needs energy and transport easily(but as we know, the resource transportation stuff is not here because it is not a priority for this style of RTS)
 
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